Mace's Maulers - Greenville Drive trade

[Greenville Drive]

Mace's Maulers get 2015 FYPD picks:

7.21
8.29
8.32
9.15
9.25
10.21
11.15
13.15
15.15
15.supp
16.15
17.15
18.15
19.15
20.15

Greenville Drive gets:

Jon Gray--prospect
Maulers 2015 FYPD pick in rounds 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35

Mace to confirm.

[Deleted]

i confirm this trade

[Deleted]

Not approving this, essentially you are giving up a top 30 prospect, who is already in the majors and will have a rotation spot next season, for 15 draft picks that have absolutely zero value when half the picks have already passed, meaning the chances of finding a legitimate prospect are even worse.

If this trade happened in round 7, yeah maybe but still.

I thought my Albert Pujols trade was bad. Ha.

[Deleted]

I figure this is as good a time as any to say this...

The trade market in this league is destroyed. Legitimate MLB players are being moved for crapshoot picks and prospects. People don't realize that only ~30% of top-100 prospects pan out. The rate is astronomically lower for non top-100 guys. Instead of taking those facts into trade negotiations, they are blinded by the allure of an intriguing prospect. Unless the prospect is an absolute can't miss stud (like a Kris Bryant/Mike Trout/Bryce Harper), there should never be a one-for-one -- prospect for established fantasy contributor -- trade.

All this might sound hypocritical, given my trade with Daytona. I didn't push for that deal to happen. I admit, I low-balled him in negotiations, but I never expected him to accept. I didn't have the minor league assets to give up for a player I'm probably losing in the offseason. Plus, I had every intention of tearing it down in the offseason anyway. Unfortunately, that's something that will be nearly impossible to do with the trade market so unbalanced. Rebuilding teams will never compete, since they're getting jack shit for their players, and top teams will be able to continuously underpay to stay at the top.

As Kyle said above, this is essentially a bunch of 16th round picks, then 17-20, for a top-3 overall pick. As Jeremy would say, it's probably within the parameters of the league's laissez-faire philosophy, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Even if this trade occurred in the 7th round it would be extremely unbalanced.

I just feel like it's time to address how awful the trade market has been. It hasn't been one or two deals, it has been a good chunk of trades that have occurred since last offseason.

[Deleted]

you know if my minor league system was full as most others, i would agree maybe not , but i being new to thisleague, have a small minor league system and would rather take the crap shoot to hopefully find some lightning in a bottle, i may not but i need to fill the holes, i did put this out there for everybody to offer, and had some other offers but this seemed the best for me, i hope it is approved, but i will abide by the leagues wishes, i am ready to draft some players so let me know when i can or if i can

[Deleted]

Edit:

[Greenville Drive]

Aug 11, 2015 10:57:20 GMT -5 @clutchbutler21 said:

I figure this is as good a time as any to say this...

I just feel like it's time to address how awful the trade market has been. It hasn't been one or two deals, it has been a good chunk of trades that have occurred since last offseason.

Not really sure what you mean by this. You are a prime example of why it is a depressed sellers market. You were in 5th place last week and 10th place this week, and now you are selling, practically assuring which 8 teams will get in the playoffs and which 12 teams will be watching/trying to trade players.

This buyers market is not going to fix itself quickly. Probably the 2 best teams have 2 of the best farm systems and are some of the shrewdest negotiators we have. Vipers has not won this thing 3 years in a row by rushing or making dumb moves and Boulder has taken a methodical approach that took about 4 years to get to where he is. You guys asking too much for 2015 guys is not going to hurt any of the playoff teams and will really only cost you in the long run.

[Greenville Drive]

Aug 11, 2015 10:43:26 GMT -5 @mikebordicks said:

If this trade happened in round 7, yeah maybe but still.

We basically came to an agreement on Friday morning on this trade but he got busy/went out of town and we didn't get around to finalizing/posting it until last evening. Might not matter or might sound like horseshit to some, but that's what happened.

I don't want to go all dictator here, but I think this trade should stand like 10 other very questionable trades that have went through. I think if it was anyone but me there would be less said, but because I do want to be held to higher standards, we will re-work or cancel the deal. I'll make sure I get approval from Kyle before I post it.

[Deleted]

Here's your approval. Go ahead, make the trade.

The fact is this: those 10 other "very questionable trades" should have been placed up for discussion, rather than just approving them. That's why this trade market is shit and for most of the season, this league in general. So we might as well approve this "very questionable trade".

[Deleted]

I'm selling because my team can't make the playoffs. It's littered with injured and part time players. Go ahead, look at my roster. Tell me it's a playoff team. We both know it is not. Also, I can't contribute to the market problem if I'm not selling for low value. That's just common sense. Although I made the post, I've yet to make a trade where I gave up a veteran for nothing. Hell, I haven't even made a trade.

In regards to the second part of your message, I'm not entirely sure what it means, but I think it reads as something along the lines of asking too much for players? The only "2015 guy" you inquired about was Wade Davis, a top RP in this league. I was willing to move him, but was going to treat him like a top RP. Unlike real baseball, we have the option to match players after their team control years. An expiring contract is not always an expiring contract, and that's something that has to be considered in trade value evaluations.

As far as asking too much, as I've stated before, the majority of prospects who come into the league will not be solid fantasy contributors. That's just common sense. The reality is that most top-100 prospects won't perform anywhere close to the level of play as the guys you give up for them.

I'm not sure where the Vipers and Boulders team analysis plays into this discussion. I think it's an attempt to justify the trading of a top prospect for multiple late round picks in an attempt to bolster the minors with depth? If so, while I'm grim on the chances of Gray's success as a MLBer, I would say that having one top-30 guy is better than 15 guys who will likely never even make it to the league. Anyone who disagrees can feel free to inbox me and we can work a trade out.

If it was meant as an attempt to justify the market, then I don't see its relevance. It's not like teams don't have pieces to trade. It's not like all the prospects in the league are confined to those two teams. Hell, it's not like neither aren't willing to trade those prospects to have a better chance to win it all. There's a way to make fair deals when the other team doesn't have much, the market just hasn't dictated it.

I should end by saying I understand that leagues are going to go through cycles. At some points it will be a buyer's market, and others a seller's. It's natural. But when trades start getting ridiculously unbalanced, as some have been this year, it harms the integrity of the league.

[Boulder Ball Busters]

I must say is a really good and thought out discussion and shows legtimate passions

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2015 13:27:03 GMT -5 Boulder Ball Busters said:

I must say is a really good and thought out discussion and shows legtimate passions

I care, man. I really do.

[Deleted]

It's not this trade in particular that's making me voice these frustrations, so I don't want anyone to feel like I'm attacking them. It's been a few over the course of the season, as Kyle alluded to.

[Deleted]

Prospect Success/Bust Rates

It's 3-4 years old, but you get the idea.

[Greenville Drive]

We can continue this discussion in another thread, but I would like to get this deal re-done or canceled as Mace is wanting to make these picks. If I include C.J. Edwards does that make it a fair deal?

Any legit responses appreciated.

[Deleted]

I have no problem approving it as it is. It's what we've been doing so far, and it's what I think should be done here.

I was just using this thread to voice my frustrations, specially after I saw that Kyle shared the same ones. I didn't mean to single out this trade or anyone invokved in particular.

Let the trade stand and let Mace make the picks, I'll officially APPROVE it. I'll get off my soap box. I just wanted to try and preach to the league about the crappy market and player valuations.

[Deleted]

Aug 10, 2015 17:16:23 GMT -5 Greenville Drive said:

Mace's Maulers get 2015 FYPD picks:

7.21
8.29
8.32
9.15
9.25
10.21
11.15
13.15
15.15
15.supp
16.15
17.15
18.15
19.15
20.15

Greenville Drive gets:

Jon Gray--prospect
Maulers 2015 FYPD pick in rounds 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35

Mace to confirm.

Continuing the long standing practice of the league, I APPROVE this trade.

[Greenville Drive]

Aug 11, 2015 14:21:58 GMT -5 @clutchbutler21 said:

I have no problem approving it as it is. It's what we've been doing so far, and it's what I think should be done here.

No, now that we have brought it up, I want this to be the first of all legit trades going forward. I will be a little harder on approving them and anyone can publicly or privately voice concern on this or any other trade going forward. So please chime in on this trade wity Edwards going to Maulers.

[Deleted]

I like it, but i was content with the other, i think to for me there will be a learning curve, first dynasty league i have played, the fact i am competing was due to trading off some good minor leaguers, i regret some of those trades but i feel i learned from them, i am not high on gray and needed the picks, i have been researching players and hoped i have picked some good ones, but i will see, did not mean to piss off anyone, tried to trade gray for more , but got little response, alas maybe he aint all that only time will tell ,thats what makes this fun for me

[Deleted]

The problem is multi faceted if we really think about it. There are limited teams who seem able to make the playoffs. Add to that the fact that there is no monetary payoff for winning/going deeper into the post season. That limits the trade market for sellers. I'm completely new to the league. I've been advertising my guys since I entered the league. I've gotten very few inquiries and when I have offered fair, legitimate deals, I've been left holding the guys as there was always someone willing to give up more for less. The deals I made last week were both done with the idea that it was better to get something than nothing for the guys I wanted to trade. I was in discussion with Greenville and we were close to s deal on a prime time pitcher, but he balked and now has found a deal for a guy who may be just as useful, for a longer period of time, without giving up much of anything.

I am very much against not approving trades. I do think that everyone has to look at being good citizens of the league and driving hard bargains as either buyers or sellers. Having said that, guys need to be able to do what they feel is best for their team. Had my deals not been approved, I would have gotten one comp pick for Shark. Most any pick is a crapshoot. I got guys in both deals that I feel can be useful going forward. They are far from Top prospects or potential stars, but they can contribute. A comp pick, no matter how high, may never even be that. This deal is the best I could do. As for the Quintana deal, Brooks is a guy I like. He doesn't walk many guys and he can be a nice 3/4 in a MLB rotation for a good period of time. I'm not going to compete for the playoffs next season here so Quintana isn't part of my solution going forward. I need to be allowed to turn him into something that I think might be part of the solution and I need to be able to make a mistake if that's what happens.

I understand the idea of not liking certain deals, but it is a fine line if we start telling guys they have to hold players to release after the season rather than turn them into some possible future use. That may well create a lot more problems than it solves.

The answer, in the end, is more league activity. If there were 12-15 teams with a chance at the playoffs and if the playoffs meant something to everyone, that would go a long way to helping solve this issue. If only 3 or 4 teams are buying, the deals are going to be weak at times.

I've seen too many leagues like this collapse from the weight of these kinds of issues. I don't want to see that here. We need to put everything on the table and see what we can live with and what we think may be factors that can impact this sort of stuff. Vetoing trades should be a last, desperate resort.

[Deleted]

Not questioning past trades, we've all given up a little more to get what we want. And with prospects, most of them never amount to anything. I've certainly found more value in some prospects and acquired them for established MLB talent and 2/3rds of them never amount to anything. Your justification is fine.

My concern is this: I've been in this league for four years, many have been in a while and even longer. I'm thankful for how much time Jeremy puts into this league, it takes a lot out of my free time and I'm not even the person running the damn thing. I wouldn't have made a fuss about this if I wasn't passionate about this league.

If Daytona feels the initial deal is fine, please go ahead with it. Like I said, someone else can approve.

[Greenville Drive]

Well written post Daytona and much of what you said is dead on. We just need more buyers than sellers, more league activity, etc. Several other good points have been made as well. I have been meaning to bring up some rule discussion topics for 2016 and I think now is as good as time as any.

I want me deal to be the first deal of the "slightly" more strict trade guidelines rather the last deal of the "rather lax" guidelines we have been using. That said, I would like to include CJ Edwards in the original deal going to Maulers. I would truly like Bordicks, Mookie and Daytona to approve/confirm/decline that this is an acceptable deal so that the picks can be made.

I truly appreciate legit concern for the league and not just what is bad for your team. Some of the rule changes I want to introduce will effect people negatively, but I want it to be what is best for the league the next 5 years and not what hurts my team in 2016. I will get to that in a separate thread. Please let me and Steve know on the trade so we can move on in a positive way.

[Deleted]

Trade is good with me...

[DC Vipers]

Aug 11, 2015 12:54:12 GMT -5 Greenville Drive said:

Probably the 2 best teams have 2 of the best farm systems and are some of the shrewdest negotiators we have. Vipers has not won this thing 3 years in a row by rushing or making dumb moves and Boulder has taken a methodical approach that took about 4 years to get to where he is.

I am not sure what I have to do with this?

[Boulder Ball Busters]

I accept your praise

[Deleted]

I'm fine wirh the trade

[Deleted]

As am I